Re: [-empyre-] experience Vs commerce

[John Klima <klima@echonyc.com>]

Patrick Lichty wrote:
> 
> > > The novelty will wear off.
> >
> > that's the thing patrick, it ain't a novelty, it is the essence of the
> > medium... 

> I think there's a big difference between the novelty that culture ascribes
> to something (the 'media image' as it were) and the actual thing.  In
> actuality, coding isn't novel at all...

true, and yes the media is ascribing it newsworthy, because its their
job to report on the times we live in, and software has of late become
very important to the times. that doesn't change the fact that to create
glasbead i had to code it.

> > as there will
> > be a steady growth of "sunday net artists" who can "paint" as well as
> > the "masters."
> 
> I doubt that. That's technique.  I think that there will be more people
> coming up, but there has been and always will be.

every homepage, fan site, hobby site is "sunday net art" or perhaps
"sunday magazine design." it stands to reason that more and more people
will take the design of their site more seriously, whether or not they
call it art. some surely will. flash (and flash like techs) will go
along way to putting it in the hands of the general public. its like
"net art by numbers"

> I have a proposal out for a large,
> non-interactive ceramics installation.

love to see it

 
> > there's the bartender's buyback (do you have that in Louisiana?) not to
> > mention happy hour.
> 
> That and drive thru daquiri bars.

oh yeah i forgot that (i spent 2 years in NOLA) yer one up on me.

 
> > > What I argue is that there is a dominant meme going on now
> > > about coding which sometimes mitigates the inclusion of some pretty
> marginal
> > > work.
> >
> > again i agree, but i dislike this notion being used to discourage the
> > artist from exploring/exploiting the lower level tech. what you say is
> > not only that "its okay not to understand the tech" but that "artists
> > probably shouldn't." thats the realm of the geek and we don't need to
> > know that. i think we do.
> 
> ...I believe it is their CHOICE.

of course. but...

> ...It's always a mix, one just chooses how to allocate one's
> technical, cultural, and intellectual resources.  One can put a lot of
> cultural code into something that has relatively simple algorithmic code.
> It's all a balance, like not so much that you have a diamond, it's how you
> cut it.  And I don't see that many more master diamond cutters today.
> 
> I hope you don't think that since I question determinism (re: suggesting
> this is the way we _have_ to do it), it means that I am against the practice
> itself.  I do it myself, how can I be against it?  But then, I question it
> as well.

...i don't think you think that, as much as i hope you don't think i
think the opposite, hehe.  there are no absolutes, there is always
choice. what i do think is that both camps need to push into each other
a bit more, and my advise to artists who encounter the problems
originally introduced in this thread, is to go deeper. own the tools.

> > there is no point in getting down to it at that level. but perhaps
> > photoshop is not a medium at all, its a tool, the medium there being
> > photography. so in other words, where is the medium? the artist's job is
> > to fucking find it! i havn't yet felt the constraints you mention
> > because i have yet to really find the medium.
> 
> This is good, but I think we're slipping back and forth.  I'll probably have
> to come to NYC and hash this out.  may, my man.

indeed we are now more or less describing the *same* side of the same
coin. i'll just conclude my thoughts on the topic with this: don't let
laziness or fear prevent you from stepping on the brass tacks, and,  it
seems that alot of the concept heavy work could benefit from a bit more
technical rigor (and vice versa), and, that much of the concept heavy
work need not be executed digitally at all, but is for the sole reason
that doing so is trendy (code art is not the trendy thing here, art on
the computer is).
 
> But critical theory is just one form of code that I write.

do you have the critical theory api online? can i get the source? is it
well documented? any sample code?

j